Ensuring children marry Jewish?

[Arie Stavchansky]

{Moderator Note: Responses should focus on the parenting issue)

Hi There!

First let me say that I'm Jewish, but not married. I was raised
conservative, and have become "conservadox" if that's even a word. The
bottom line is that I care a great deal about Judaism, its precepts, and
traditions. I study Torah often, and go to services more than once a
month. Recently, I met a wonderful Jewish woman who was raised Reform,
and have discovered that she shares many of the same values that I have,
except that she is much more tolerant of other religions and cultures
than me. For example, her sister is engaged to a man outside the Jewish
faith. She describes her parents as being simply "disappointed" in her
sister's decision. Her mother also gave her a book about Christian
dieting strategies (which I'm not sure is different from any other kind
of dieting stragy). In any case, both her parents are Jewish, her
grandmother and grandfather are orthodox, and she does like learning
more about Judaism. I recently expressed my views on intermarriage
(which is that I can't support a decision like that) and she took a good
deal of offense, but still wants to see me. Is this something that
couples discuss before they
wish to become engaged to be married? Is this a "deal-breaker" for a
courting relationship?

I suppose my question comes down to how does one know that their
children will want to keep being Jewish? I do understand that the
formative years of a child's life are crucial to how they deal with the
religion. Even so, we all know the tale of Chava from "Fiddler On The
Roof."--that is, traditional, observant, and caring Jewish parents have
a daughter who marries outside of the faith.

There are many reasons that I enjoy dating this woman, but I can tend to
worry to much about the prospect of marriage, because I care dearly
about the survival of Jewish ideals. It would break my heart to learn
of a child of mine that wanted to intermarry.

If anybody has any advice in this matter, or has dealt with this issue I
would love to hear from you.

Thanks!

Arie


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[fred]

Post by Arie Stavchansky
Moderator Note: Responses should focus on the parenting issue)

Understood, but I hope the moderators will allow a some
leeway, in that the kind of person and the kind of Jew
one chooses to become is a very great determinant of
future parenting, and one needs to think deeply about that
even before deciding to become a parent.

Post by Arie Stavchansky
Hi There!
First let me say that I'm Jewish, but not married. I was raised
conservative, and have become "conservadox" if that's even a word. The
bottom line is that I care a great deal about Judaism, its precepts,
and traditions. I study Torah often, and go to services more than once
a month. Recently, I met a wonderful Jewish woman who was raised
Reform, and have discovered that she shares many of the same values
that I have,except that she is much more tolerant of other
religions and cultures than me. For example, her sister is
engaged to a man outside the Jewish faith.

I don't know that I would describe you as "less tolerant". I have no
reason to believe that you don't tolerate other religions and cultures
just because you yourself don't wish to become a member of one, either
yourself or through your children. You're allowed to expect a little
tolerance yourself.

Post by Arie Stavchansky
She describes her parents as being simply "disappointed" in her
sister's decision.

Once that decision has been made, only the sister herself can rescind
it, and it's very painful to admit to oneselves that irrevocable
parenting decisions taken long led to the situation.

Post by Arie Stavchansky
Her mother also gave her a book about
Christian dieting strategies (which I'm not sure is different from any
other kind of dieting strategy). In any case, both her parents are
Jewish, her grandmother and grandfather are orthodox, and she does like
learning more about Judaism.

I would then strongly suggest that if the two of you remain together,
you spend as much time with the grandparents as possible.

Post by Arie Stavchansky
I recently expressed my views on intermarriage(which is
that I can't support a decision like that) and she took a
good deal of offense, but still wants to see me.

I think you have to differentiate between general views on
intermarriage, and the personal relationship with your friend's sister.
One can disapprove of her choices without rejecting her, or expecting
your friend to. As a matter of fact, even if she marries her
non-Jewish fiance, her children will be Jewish, and the relationship
they have woth Judaism depends in no small part on their relationship
with their uncles. Remember the Orthodox great grandparents, and keep
the doors open.

Post by Arie Stavchansky
Is this something that couples discuss before they wish to
become engaged to be married? Is this a "deal-breaker" for a
courting relationship?

Othodox arranged marriages (or at least arranged introductions) are not
very fashionable these days, but an astonishing number of them succeed
even when finalized after a single "date". This is because that date is
spent talking seriously about everything each of them expects in a
marriage, in child rearing, and of life in general. I'm not suggesting
such a marriage to you, of course, but I am suggesting that the more
important things you talk about, the better chance you will have. As
for "deal-breaker", that depends on how you like each other's answers.
If having intermarried children would indeed be heartbreaking to you,
then it is definitely a deal breaker. But it's possible that she would
be just as upset for her own children, without wishing to push her
sister away. That's why you need to talk.

Post by Arie Stavchansky
I suppose my question comes down to how does one know that their
children will want to keep being Jewish? I do understand that the
formative years of a child's life are crucial to how they deal with the
religion.

Orthodox Jews have always known that one thing, and one thing only, can
generally insure that their children will remain active Jews. That is
education. Not a few hours after school and Sundays, but a full Jewish
day school or Yeshivah education. Conservative and Reform Jews have
recently come to the same conclusion, and have called for the
establishment of more day schools of their own. I'm sure that you'll
get further replies here telling you how difficult that can be, in that
it requires you to dedicate a substantial portion of your income to the
education that most Americans get for free, and may even dictate the
area of the country you can live in, but difficult or not, that's the
bottom line.

Post by Arie Stavchansky
Even so, we all know the
tale of Chava from "Fiddler On The Roof."--that is, traditional,
observant, and caring Jewish parents have a daughter who marries
outside of the faith.

WADR to Tevya, I don't know of too many children raised with
an Orthodox education who intermarry. Not all remain Orthodox, but very
few intermarry. Despite our romantic view of Jewish life in Eastern
Europe, the reality is that most of the Tevyas were forced to spend too
much of their time making a bare living to be able to learn as much as
they would have wished to, and his daughters probably didn't go to
school at all.

Post by Arie Stavchansky
There are many reasons that I enjoy dating this woman, but
I can tend to worry to much about the prospect of marriage, because I
care dearly about the survival of Jewish ideals. It would break my
heart to learn of a child of mine that wanted to intermarry.

I hate to sound like an amateur psychologist, but again, the only way to
really know is to communicate with each other.

And, of course, the bottom line is that whatever you decide to do,
whomever you marry and whatever parenting plan you choose, whatever
education you pick for your children, it must all be done for the sake
of heaven. Not merely for the survival of the nationalistic ideal of a
Jewish people, not for the preservation of a unique ethnic culture, but
because the tradition of Jewish observance passed on from generation to
generation reflects how G-d wants us to live. If it is anything less,
your children will sense it, and feel free to reject it. Frankly,no
matter how much I was raised in it and how much I identify with it, I
myself wouldn't feel that a mere cultural tradition was sacred
enough to dictate whom I married.




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[Adelle]

Post by Arie Stavchansky
{Moderator Note: Responses should focus on the parenting issue)
Hi There!
First let me say that I'm Jewish, but not married. I was raised
conservative, and have become "conservadox" if that's even a word. The
bottom line is that I care a great deal about Judaism, its precepts, and
traditions. I study Torah often, and go to services more than once a
month. Recently, I met a wonderful Jewish woman who was raised Reform,
and have discovered that she shares many of the same values that I have,
except that she is much more tolerant of other religions and cultures
than me. For example, her sister is engaged to a man outside the Jewish
faith. She describes her parents as being simply "disappointed" in her
sister's decision. Her mother also gave her a book about Christian
dieting strategies (which I'm not sure is different from any other kind
of dieting stragy). In any case, both her parents are Jewish, her
grandmother and grandfather are orthodox, and she does like learning
more about Judaism. I recently expressed my views on intermarriage
(which is that I can't support a decision like that) and she took a good
deal of offense, but still wants to see me. Is this something that
couples discuss before they
wish to become engaged to be married? Is this a "deal-breaker" for a
courting relationship?
I suppose my question comes down to how does one know that their
children will want to keep being Jewish? I do understand that the
formative years of a child's life are crucial to how they deal with the
religion. Even so, we all know the tale of Chava from "Fiddler On The
Roof."--that is, traditional, observant, and caring Jewish parents have
a daughter who marries outside of the faith.
There are many reasons that I enjoy dating this woman, but I can tend to
worry to much about the prospect of marriage, because I care dearly
about the survival of Jewish ideals. It would break my heart to learn
of a child of mine that wanted to intermarry.
If anybody has any advice in this matter, or has dealt with this issue I
would love to hear from you.
Thanks!
Arie

Hi, Arie;

Fred makes some good points. But just to show more of the picture, I'm one
of those Orthodox Yeshiva educated girls who married a non-Jew.

How did that happen? Short answer is, like many women, I married someone
just like my father; but this one happened to not be Jewish. A Rabbi once
said that he'd seen the fewest 'intermarrieds' in families that really
'celebrated Shabbat' as well as observing Shabbat. That would be true for
our family. I had never heard of zemirot until I was at a friend's house for
Shabbat, in 8th grade. My Dad was a pharmacist and worked on Shabbat saying
saving lives and easing suffering by helping to keep his boss' store open
was a mitzvah.

Bottom line - You can do everything 'right,' and still have one of your
children marry a non-Jew. You can do things that will increase the chance
that your child and their children stay connected to Yiddishkeit. But the
marriage part is very hard to guarantee.

My mother never said a single word about my husband not being Jewish - once
the engagement ring was on my finger (before there was plenty). From then
on, he was her second son. It has done wonders for their relationship and
for shalom habayit. My sister on the other hand, pulled out of being a
bridesmaid at our wedding after accepting, because it was an intermarriage.
That relationship continues to be rocky.

And when my daughter celebrated becoming a Bat Mitzvah this past October, my
husband was just as proud of her and her accomplishments as everyone else in
the family - didn't matter that he couldn't join me for an aliyah (We go to
a Conservative shul). We have been married 16 years.

We did sit down with a therapist before we married and came to an agreement
about the important stuff - what holidays would we celebrate and how would
we celebrate them. What would we do about lifecycle events? Household
practices. Attitudes of the extended family.

Could you deal with the future brother in law coming to your house for
Shabbat dinner or a Seder? What if they discussed going to his family's
house for Christmas in front of you? What would you do and say?

Think of all the possible areas for negotiation and conflict. Make a written
list if you have to. Then decide when it's the right time in the
relationship to talk about them.

Adelle




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This post reflects the author's opinion; the moderators' opinions may differ.
Posters seeking medical or halachic information should consult competent
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ACKs are handled by an autoresponder. Munged From:/Reply-To: means no ACKs.
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This forum discusses issues specific to childrearing in a Jewish context.
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