Santa (was: why we don't have a tree, etc)

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Aimee Yermish

2003-12-09 14:33:00 UTC

I like Alexandra's rabbi's explanation about the birthday party, by the
way. It's a lot more lyrical and more preschool-appropriate than my
simple, "Christmas is a Christian holiday, they're celebrating the
birthday of Jesus, who they think was part of God. We don't think Jesus
was part of God, so we don't celebrate his birthday. In fact, we don't
celebrate any person's birthday in Judaism, only the birthday of the
world (Rosh Hashana). But we can enjoy looking at their celebrations."

The other day, we had a Christian friend over (both girls are about four
years old). I heard the two of them having a conversation about Santa
Claus -- the friend was talking about how Santa would come to her house,
and my daughter was explaining that Santa doesn't come to our house
because we're Jewish. The other girl was incredulous and then started
feeling sorry for her. I explained that my kid was right, Santa doesn't
bring us presents, but we get Chanukah presents from our relatives, so
we do okay.

I don't want to burst any Christian preschooler's bubble about Santa,
but I'd really like to let my kid know privately that Santa isn't for
real (why should I encourage her to believe in someone else's
mythology?). But then I worry that she'll blurt out the secret to
someone else her age and cause a crisis -- kids this age aren't known
for their ability to keep secrets. Any thoughts?

--Aimee
***@alum.mit.edu

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Adelle D. Stavis, Esq.

2003-12-10 05:15:23 UTC

Permalink

Post by Aimee Yermish
I like Alexandra's rabbi's explanation about the birthday party, by the
way. It's a lot more lyrical and more preschool-appropriate than my
simple, "Christmas is a Christian holiday, they're celebrating the
birthday of Jesus, who they think was part of God. We don't think Jesus
was part of God, so we don't celebrate his birthday. In fact, we don't
celebrate any person's birthday in Judaism, only the birthday of the
world (Rosh Hashana). But we can enjoy looking at their celebrations."
The other day, we had a Christian friend over (both girls are about four
years old). I heard the two of them having a conversation about Santa
Claus -- the friend was talking about how Santa would come to her house,
and my daughter was explaining that Santa doesn't come to our house
because we're Jewish. The other girl was incredulous and then started
feeling sorry for her. I explained that my kid was right, Santa doesn't
bring us presents, but we get Chanukah presents from our relatives, so
we do okay.
I don't want to burst any Christian preschooler's bubble about Santa,
but I'd really like to let my kid know privately that Santa isn't for
real (why should I encourage her to believe in someone else's
mythology?). But then I worry that she'll blurt out the secret to
someone else her age and cause a crisis -- kids this age aren't known
for their ability to keep secrets. Any thoughts?
--Aimee

Yeah. Don't.

I had umpteen calls from angry parents that my daughter had their respective
child in tears by insisting there is no Santa. And she was about 8 or 9 at
the time! You'd think most kids would have figured it out on their own by
then.

It's a very important part of the holiday for Christian kids to believe in
this person who makes magical things happen. And at four, kids are in a
developmental stage where fantasy and reality are intertwined. Wait until
she is older.

It's similar to our perpetuating the idea that Eliyahu comes to every Jewish
home doing Passover. And we do things like secretly pour off some wine from
Eliyahu's cup to help convince, just as Christian families do things to
perpetuate the myth of Santa.

Don't risk your child's friendships right now. Wait until she comes out and
asks. When I did, my Mom explained it as Santa representing the spirit of
generosity and joy that is in everyone, and if I told people there was no
Santa before they figured it out for themselves, I would damage their
ability to believe that everyone had 'good' inside them. It made great sense
to me and helped me understand what was at the core of the holiday and how
to be respectful of my friends.

Has she asked? Is she trying to figure it out? If not, and she is
comfortable in knowing Hanukah is her holiday - then don't rock the boat. If
she is puzzling it out, then try to find a way where she knows keeping quiet
to her Christian friends is really important.
--
Adelle D. Stavis, Esq.
Remove the c in my name for me to see your reply

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kgold

2003-12-12 19:25:15 UTC

Permalink

There's an interesting side thread.

Do some people have their children believe that Elijah really comes
and drinks the wine?

I've always done the "kid opens the door, adult drinks wine, oh, look
Elijah came" thing, but it was always a fun joke. The child would try
to peek, the adult would say "look out the door", we'd get caught and
deny it, etc.

In our house, there was never any doubt that an adult was drinking the
wine. What do others do?

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Naomi Rivkis

2003-12-14 16:01:34 UTC

Permalink

Post by kgold
There's an interesting side thread.
Do some people have their children believe that Elijah really comes
and drinks the wine?
I've always done the "kid opens the door, adult drinks wine, oh, look
Elijah came" thing, but it was always a fun joke. The child would try
to peek, the adult would say "look out the door", we'd get caught and
deny it, etc.
In our house, there was never any doubt that an adult was drinking the
wine. What do others do?

Our household didn't have anybody drink the wine, but we examined it
closely and always managed to convince ourselves there was a bit less
in the glass than there had been. I'd say we believed more than not;
certainly there was no hint from the adults that it wasn't true.

Naomi

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Fred Rosenblatt

2003-12-14 03:12:10 UTC

Permalink

Post by Adelle D. Stavis, Esq.

Post by Aimee Yermish
I don't want to burst any Christian preschooler's bubble about Santa,
but I'd really like to let my kid know privately that Santa isn't for
real (why should I encourage her to believe in someone else's
mythology?). But then I worry that she'll blurt out the secret to
someone else her age and cause a crisis -- kids this age aren't known
for their ability to keep secrets. Any thoughts?
--Aimee

I don't particularly want my children to interfere with other kids'
illusions either, but it is much more important to me that they never
believe in those illusions, ever.

Post by Adelle D. Stavis, Esq.
It's a very important part of the holiday for Christian kids to believe in
this person who makes magical things happen. And at four, kids are in a
developmental stage where fantasy and reality are intertwined. Wait until
she is older.

I think the dynamic is more complicated than one in which your daughter
simply informs the other children that there is no Santa. They're
probably going on about it endlessly, asking her what Santa is bringing
her, etc., and not accepting a noncommital response. If she says he is
bringing her something, then she has compromised her ideals. If she says
that she is getting nothing, then the other children either pity her or
make fun of her. "I don't believe in Santa" is really the only honest and
viable answer. I don't know at what level of sophistication this is
happening at four, but it is happening, and it's unfair to put a four
year old through it. That's one of the reasons that I raised my children
in a different environment.

Post by Adelle D. Stavis, Esq.
It's similar to our perpetuating the idea that Eliyahu comes to every Jewish
home doing Passover. And we do things like secretly pour off some wine from
Eliyahu's cup to help convince, just as Christian families do things to
perpetuate the myth of Santa.

I've never tried to convince my children that Eliyahu physically appeared
at my seder, but i would submit that the two concepts are different, in
that I myself still hope every year that he will.

Post by Adelle D. Stavis, Esq.
Don't risk your child's friendships right now. Wait until she comes out and
asks. When I did, my Mom explained it as Santa representing the spirit of
generosity and joy that is in everyone, and if I told people there was no
Santa before they figured it out for themselves, I would damage their
ability to believe that everyone had 'good' inside them. It made great sense
to me and helped me understand what was at the core of the holiday and how
to be respectful of my friends.
Has she asked? Is she trying to figure it out? If not, and she is
comfortable in knowing Hanukah is her holiday - then don't rock the boat. If
she is puzzling it out, then try to find a way where she knows keeping quiet
to her Christian friends is really important.

Again, if they offer keeping quiet as an option.

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Kevin Karplus

2003-12-14 03:10:43 UTC

Permalink

Tell your child the truth. There is no real reason to keep 'the secret'.
Even many people who do celebrate Christmas tell their children the truth
abut the Santa myth a lot younger than 4. One can continue to enjoy
the story as make-believe even knowing it isn't true---in fact,
enjoyment probably increases once kids know the reality.
--
Kevin Karplus ***@soe.ucsc.edu http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

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Robyn Kozierok

2003-12-15 15:10:16 UTC

Permalink

OTOH, I offended someone on a mailing list I'm on when they said they
thought this might be the year their child stopped believing, about
their 10yo, and I said I was "amazed" that a 10yo would still literally
believe. I learned that there is a significant sugroup of people who
celebrate Xmas and who really want to keep their kids believing as long
as possible.

However, I always told my kids, as soon as they were old enough to
understand the difference between fantasy and reality (can't recall an
exact age at this point) that Santa was a make-believe
person. I explained that some Xians like their children to believe he
is real, and that it would not be ok to tell other children that
Santa was make-believe. I never had any angry phone calls from friends'
parents, so I guess it worked.

The answer to "What did Santa bring you?" (or "What do you want Santa to
bring you?") that has always worked for us is "We don't celebrate Xmas."
(Sometimes augmented with the explanation that that is becasue we're
Jewish.) I don't think my kids were ever asked directly whether or not
they believe in Santa.

--Robyn

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Alexandra J Schmidt

2003-12-14 03:11:36 UTC

Permalink

Post by Aimee Yermish
The other day, we had a Christian friend over (both girls are about four
years old). I heard the two of them having a conversation about Santa
Claus -- the friend was talking about how Santa would come to her house,
and my daughter was explaining that Santa doesn't come to our house
because we're Jewish. The other girl was incredulous and then started
feeling sorry for her. I explained that my kid was right, Santa doesn't
bring us presents, but we get Chanukah presents from our relatives, so
we do okay.

I think I'd spin it just a little differently. The way we see it,
giving presents is one way of showing how much we love each other,
and thank each other for being part of our lives. So we like to do it
in person.

I have a friend who lived in a not-very-Jewish town and whose kids
told their non-Jewish classmates that Santa wasn't real. She got a
lot of upset phone calls opening with the phrase, "You people..."
Ugh.

If your child isn't asking if Santa is real, I wouldn't go volunteering
any information on the topic one way or another.

My kids haven't asked if Santa's real, but if and when they do,
I'll probably ask them what they think. (I suspect it's the kind of
question kids don't ask unless they're starting to have their own
doubts anyhow.) And then probably just observe that other people are
free to choose to believe in things or not, as they wish.

. . .Alexandra

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Howian

2003-12-19 17:43:21 UTC

Permalink

Subject: Re: Santa (was: why we don't have a tree, etc)
Date: 12/14/2003 6:41 AM Iran Standard Time

I have a friend who lived in a not-very-Jewish town and whose kids
told their non-Jewish classmates that Santa wasn't real. She got a
lot of upset phone calls opening with the phrase, "You people..."
Ugh.
If your child isn't asking if Santa is real, I wouldn't go volunteering
any information on the topic one way or another.
My kids haven't asked if Santa's real, but if and when they do,
I'll probably ask them what they think. (I suspect it's the kind of
question kids don't ask unless they're starting to have their own
doubts anyhow.) And then probably just observe that other people are
free to choose to believe in things or not, as they wish.
. . .Alexandra
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chiam margalit

2003-12-15 12:35:07 UTC

Permalink

When my children were about 4, I was honest about the whole Santa myth
but I was *very* clear that they should never ever tell any child who
believed in Santa that he wasn't real. I explained that it would hurt
their feelings and make them very sad and we just don't purposely make
people sad. They went to a Jewish preschool, but there were a couple
of kids who had Xian relatives and did some kind of Xmas activities,
even though they were raised Jewish. Those kids were pretty confused 4
year olds, because they *did* believe in Santa although they knew
Santa didn't come to their homes, but to the homes of their cousins
and grandparents. So even in a Jewish school, Santa did come up often
in conversation, thus it was very important to me that my kids not
ruin it for their friends.

And you know what? They didn't. They definately respected that it
would be hurtful to their friends to tell them the truth about Santa,
just like it would be hurtful to tell kids who still believed in the
tooth fairy (I got caught pretty early on!) that she was a myth, too.

I just wish my kids could have remained so respectful of their peer's
feelings, but puberty does something to warp the mind. :-)

Marjorie

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Betsy Schwartz

2003-12-15 18:03:15 UTC

Permalink

At age four, the girls in her school were very much into making cliques,

getting mad, making up and so on - my daughter hated this, and didn't
usually participate, but it helped her understand. I didn't see the same

dynamic among the boys, who seemed to be more into verbal challenges.

One thing I've found unusual about the whole Christmas experience - when

I was a kid we sang Christian religious carols in school, which for all
of its wrongs at least gave me an idea of what the holiday is about. In
this age of "multiculturalism", her schools have been pretty careful
about removing overtly religious messages, so *all* she has been exposed

to is the Santa/Shopping side of the holiday. I had to take her myself
to
show her a creche and explain to her that there was a religious holiday
buried under there somewhere. I felt I had to do this as part of the
message I was trying to convey,about respecting other religions and
about
the shopping frenzy not being part of that.

<snip>

Post by chiam margalit
And you know what? They didn't. They definately respected that it

--
Betsy Schwartz
Unix Systems Administrator,CRG
Harvard Graduate School of Design
email: betsys at gsd dot harvard dot edu

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Betsy Schwartz

2003-12-16 15:02:55 UTC

Permalink

I had the same conversation with my daughter at four, and she also has
been able to keep quiet. I admit, though, that I added that they would
get mad at *her* if she spoiled their fun. At four, the idea of
respecting someone's religious beliefs is kinda vague for her, but she
was able to understand that there are some things that get people angry
and upset. As she's grown older, we've talked more about what other
people believe.

At age four, the girls in her school were very much into making cliques,
getting mad, making up and so on - my daughter hated this, and didn't
usually participate, but it helped her understand. I didn't see the same
dynamic among the boys, who seemed to be more into verbal challenges.

One thing I've found unusual about the whole Christmas experience - when
I was a kid we sang Christian religious carols in school, which for all
of its wrongs at least gave me an idea of what the holiday is about. In
this age of "multiculturalism", her schools have been pretty careful
about removing overtly religious messages, so *all* she has been exposed
to is the Santa/Shopping side of the holiday. I had to take her myself to
show her a creche and explain to her that there was a religious holiday
buried under there somewhere. I felt I had to do this as part of the
message I was trying to convey,about respecting other religions and about
the shopping frenzy not being part of that.

<snip>

Post by chiam margalit
And you know what? They didn't. They definately respected that it

Unix Systems Administrator,CRG
Harvard Graduate School of Design
email: betsys at gsd dot harvard dot edu

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Fred Rosenblatt

2003-12-16 01:02:39 UTC

Permalink

Post by chiam margalit
When my children were about 4, I was honest about the whole Santa myth
but I was *very* clear that they should never ever tell any child who
believed in Santa that he wasn't real. I explained that it would hurt
their feelings and make them very sad and we just don't purposely make
people sad. They went to a Jewish preschool, but there were a couple
of kids who had Xian relatives and did some kind of Xmas activities,
even though they were raised Jewish. Those kids were pretty confused 4
year olds, because they *did* believe in Santa although they knew
Santa didn't come to their homes, but to the homes of their cousins
and grandparents. So even in a Jewish school, Santa did come up often
in conversation, thus it was very important to me that my kids not
ruin it for their friends.
And you know what? They didn't. They definately respected that it
would be hurtful to their friends to tell them the truth about Santa,
just like it would be hurtful to tell kids who still believed in the
tooth fairy (I got caught pretty early on!) that she was a myth, too.

I think I might draw the line at coddling such beliefs in a Jewish child.
They believed because they had Xian relatives? I wonder how much influence
was allowed to got the other way? Telling them the truth would be
hurtful in the same way that having a tumor removed would be hurtful:
in the short term, but life-saving in the long run.

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Robyn Kozierok

2003-12-19 17:42:09 UTC

Permalink

I don't think that is our decision to make. That is up to the child's
parents. As much as it must have bothered Marjorie to know Jewish
children who believed in Santa, I think she did absolutely the right
thing by telling her own children, but not imposing her decision on
other families. Unlike a brain tumor, belief in Santa is not fatal,
even in Jewish children.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

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