Discussion:
Eliyahu
(too old to reply)
Aimee Yermish
2003-12-22 15:51:31 UTC
Permalink
Well, there were presents earlier when the afikomen
was retrieved. ;)
When I was a kid, the afikomen rewards were rarely more than a silver
dollar. Today, at my own Seder, I do make sure there are gifts for the
children, but it's always a Judaic book of some kind (picked out in
advance for the kids we know will be there), plus the right for the
finder to designate a charity of their choice to receive a donation. No
bicycles, no dollhouses, nothing to make Pesach a "present-giving"
holiday. And the presents are not from Eliyahu, so believing in him or
not is immaterial.
I would quibble with the notion that Eliyahu is not
a major figure at the Seder. The Seder focuses on
the theme of redemption at several levels--from the
physical redemption of the Exodus to the ultimate
redemption of Moshiach. Eliyahu heralds the latter,
but another theme of the Seder is that we take a hand
in our own redemption (it's not something that just
happens passively to us, we need to make the world a
better place in preparation for it, and/or take that
first jump into the Red Sea before it actually parts).
So the notion of Eliyahu's presence at our Seder is a
significant thing symbolically and not, I think, a
notion to be grown out of. Rather, I think it's
something to be grown *into*--this is a concept
that a 2-year-old can't get, but a 5-year-old can
begin to.
I agree with you here. I didn't mean to say that Eliyahu wasn't an
important part of the Seder, but that the childlike literal belief in
him wasn't something that routinely traumatizes kids when they find out
what the adults *really* think.
The other thing that amuses me is that much as we kick and
moan about the commercialization of Christmas, Chanukah
was designed as a commercial holiday as well. (Put that
menorah right there in the window! Publicize that miracle!)
I don't think it was designed as a commercial holiday. It was designed
as a minor celebration of one particular incident in our long struggle
for religious freedom. Putting the chanukiyah in the window strikes me
as having more in common with the mezuzah -- showing that we're not
afraid to publicly identify as Jews. I've certainly never seen or heard
of Jewish families subjecting each other to the pressure Christian
families do to decorate their houses with more and more elaborate
displays of lights and inflatables and big plastic things and such.
And the story about the oil is a later addition (reflecting
rabbinic discomfort with some of the antics of the Hasmoneans)
And their fear that the Romans wouldn't take kindly to our celebrating a
military victory over the Greeks.

I agree with you that Christmas has definitely imposed significant
pressure on Jewish families to give kids more and bigger gifts than we
did back in the old country... but in the old country, my ancestors were
poor, so a few nuts and coins probably *was* a big present.

--Aimee




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Fred Rosenblatt
2003-12-23 00:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aimee Yermish
Well, there were presents earlier when the afikomen
was retrieved. ;)
When I was a kid, the afikomen rewards were rarely more than a silver
dollar. Today, at my own Seder, I do make sure there are gifts for the
children, but it's always a Judaic book of some kind (picked out in
advance for the kids we know will be there), plus the right for the
finder to designate a charity of their choice to receive a donation. No
bicycles, no dollhouses, nothing to make Pesach a "present-giving"
holiday. And the presents are not from Eliyahu, so believing in him or
not is immaterial.
Actually, according to the Rambam (Maimonides) it was the custom to
give children presents on all the major holidays such as Pesach. The idea
was to impress upon the child the significance of the occasion on what
ever level he or she was able to grasp it. The difference is that as
the child grows the presents cease or change (into, i.e., new clothes to
enhance the holiday), and, of course, that the concept of giving the
presents itself is never a major focus of the holiday, as it is in American
society today (I didn't see the movie, but it seems to me that the idea
of the Terminator on a quest to find the Most-Hyped-Toy-of-the-Year in
order to save Christmas really captures the essence of that holiday).
Post by Aimee Yermish
I would quibble with the notion that Eliyahu is not
a major figure at the Seder. The Seder focuses on
the theme of redemption at several levels--from the
physical redemption of the Exodus to the ultimate
redemption of Moshiach. Eliyahu heralds the latter,
but another theme of the Seder is that we take a hand
in our own redemption (it's not something that just
happens passively to us, we need to make the world a
better place in preparation for it, and/or take that
first jump into the Red Sea before it actually parts).
So the notion of Eliyahu's presence at our Seder is a
significant thing symbolically and not, I think, a
notion to be grown out of. Rather, I think it's
something to be grown *into*--this is a concept
that a 2-year-old can't get, but a 5-year-old can
begin to.
I agree with you here. I didn't mean to say that Eliyahu wasn't an
important part of the Seder, but that the childlike literal belief in
him wasn't something that routinely traumatizes kids when they find out
what the adults *really* think.
Again, I *really* think that someday he will arrive to announce the
Moshiach. Not necessarily at the Seder, but I still give a little
sigh of disappointment every year when he doesn't come.


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Claire Petersky
2003-12-23 03:23:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Rosenblatt
Again, I *really* think that someday he will arrive to announce the
Moshiach. Not necessarily at the Seder, but I still give a little
sigh of disappointment every year when he doesn't come.
He could never make it through Security at my sister-in-law's gated
community. What, an old Middle-Eastern looking man dressed in
goodness-knows-what, wanting to come to her house? Not unless he had ID and
was on the list of approved visitors.

At Passover, my kids drew pictures to identify what he'd look like and
brought them down to the security guard at the gate so he'd be let in to the
Calabasas Park Estates if he had actually stopped by.

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Claire Petersky
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